Comments on: Why I Don't Use Psychoactive Drugs to Achieve Altered States http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/ Exploring consciousness, lucid dreams, and mind enhancement Wed, 01 Feb 2012 08:57:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Bill Thompson http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/comment-page-1/#comment-302 Bill Thompson Wed, 06 Aug 2008 08:09:23 +0000 http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/#comment-302 Hi, well where do i start? There is certainly no experience that does not alter our behaviour in some way. In regards to the LSD experience there are noticable changes in my world view that enevitably affect my behaviour but most of the changes and behaviours are difficult to gauge, one does not know exactly how the particularities of ones birth affect their current behaviour, i am sure their are many changes that my unconcious has intergrated into my life without my concious mind even knowing it. Shamans begin their psychonaughtical adventures as pure novices like anyone, the difference is they have a cultural paradigm to fit the experiences into, if one can evolve such a paradigm then the shaman is no more advanced than any westener who has had sufficient psychedelic experience. There are many examples of neo shamans who live in urban environments and who use synthetic psychedelics and quasi-scientific paradigms as a means of interpreting their experience, whether or not the experience changes them as individuals is neither here nor there, ALL experiences change people, sometimes in more subtle ways than others, but psychedelic experience is part of a long continuum of life experience that enevitably changes us. The question is what new information can be retrieved that is of benefit to EVERYONE?, there is a great deal of eveidence in support of the idea that just like the amazonian shaman, the urban shaman or regular psychedelic user can bring back useful information that can be effectively intergrated into the society, take for instance the example of an electronics designer who was able to visualize a revolutionary micro-chip under LSD and who then set about creating it, with success at a later date. In regards to DMT entity contact, exploration of the phenomena itself is worthwhile, and like all unexplored regions, vital information that would benefit our civilization could quite possibly be retreived. Psychedelics therfore are not just tools for our personal spiritual growth, but ways of tapping into new fields of information to bring back vital data for everybody. I am yet to see the 'natural' methods yield the same kind of results in regards to this purpose to the extent that they would make psychedelics completely redundant. (note that i am aware of the effectiveness of non psychedelic assisted techniques of exploring new ideas however, i am criticizing the notion of abandoning psychedelics all together and supposing that the same potential exists without psychedelics, thereby assuming that the psychedelic experience can be approximated by stimulating endogenous compounds and that the two varieties of experience are interchangeable and not two seperate varieties of experience.) Hi, well where do i start? There is certainly no experience that does not alter our behaviour in some way. In regards to the LSD experience there are noticable changes in my world view that enevitably affect my behaviour but most of the changes and behaviours are difficult to gauge, one does not know exactly how the particularities of ones birth affect their current behaviour, i am sure their are many changes that my unconcious has intergrated into my life without my concious mind even knowing it. Shamans begin their psychonaughtical adventures as pure novices like anyone, the difference is they have a cultural paradigm to fit the experiences into, if one can evolve such a paradigm then the shaman is no more advanced than any westener who has had sufficient psychedelic experience. There are many examples of neo shamans who live in urban environments and who use synthetic psychedelics and quasi-scientific paradigms as a means of interpreting their experience, whether or not the experience changes them as individuals is neither here nor there, ALL experiences change people, sometimes in more subtle ways than others, but psychedelic experience is part of a long continuum of life experience that enevitably changes us. The question is what new information can be retrieved that is of benefit to EVERYONE?, there is a great deal of eveidence in support of the idea that just like the amazonian shaman, the urban shaman or regular psychedelic user can bring back useful information that can be effectively intergrated into the society, take for instance the example of an electronics designer who was able to visualize a revolutionary micro-chip under LSD and who then set about creating it, with success at a later date. In regards to DMT entity contact, exploration of the phenomena itself is worthwhile, and like all unexplored regions, vital information that would benefit our civilization could quite possibly be retreived. Psychedelics therfore are not just tools for our personal spiritual growth, but ways of tapping into new fields of information to bring back vital data for everybody. I am yet to see the 'natural' methods yield the same kind of results in regards to this purpose to the extent that they would make psychedelics completely redundant. (note that i am aware of the effectiveness of non psychedelic assisted techniques of exploring new ideas however, i am criticizing the notion of abandoning psychedelics all together and supposing that the same potential exists without psychedelics, thereby assuming that the psychedelic experience can be approximated by stimulating endogenous compounds and that the two varieties of experience are interchangeable and not two seperate varieties of experience.)

]]> By: reality shifter http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/comment-page-1/#comment-301 reality shifter Tue, 05 Aug 2008 20:06:51 +0000 http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/#comment-301 Hi Dave, Thanks for the comment. I'm glad you enjoyed the article. I've had luck with Zazen but not much luck with the Sedona Method, though I do know a few people whose mental/emotional state noticeably improved after they practiced the Sedona Method for a while. ~ Kris Hi Dave,
Thanks for the comment. I'm glad you enjoyed the article.

I've had luck with Zazen but not much luck with the Sedona Method, though I do know a few people whose mental/emotional state noticeably improved after they practiced the Sedona Method for a while.

~ Kris

]]> By: reality shifter http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/comment-page-1/#comment-300 reality shifter Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:56:46 +0000 http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/#comment-300 Hi Bill, I think there are a few factors involved: the person's approach, his intent and what he expects to gain from the experience, and how he integrates that experience into his life. The approach has a lot to do with it. There is a huge difference between a shaman in the Amazon who spends decades studying the plants, studying the nuances of the trance state, etc., and a person who orders a psychoactive substance on the internet and ingests it hoping it will give him/her an instant life-altering experience. The shaman is trained not only in how to handle that experience while it's happening but also in how to apply what is learned from the experience in his/her life after the session is over. The everyday user has no training of that type. The intent and what you expect to gain from the experience also play an important role. For example, if a technique can approximate the effects of a high dose of DMT -- entity contact, to use your example -- what does the person hope to gain from that experience? How does the person intend to make use of that experience in his/her life once the session is over? In your earlier comment, you described an intense experience triggered by LSD. How did it affect you in the short-term? How about in the long-term? In what ways does it affect you now, long after it's over? Did it change you profoundly, and in what ways? What do you do differently now as a direct result of that experience? How have you integrated that experience into your thoughts/beliefs/behavior in your daily life? Sorry for all the questions. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to interrogate you, because that's not my intent at all. :-) There are two reasons I ask: first, to demonstrate that there are differences between a person who explores psychoactive substances for true personal growth and a person who tries them just for a temporary wild experience, and second, to get a better idea of your approach so I can figure out which techniques might help you get where you want to be. ~ Kris Hi Bill,
I think there are a few factors involved: the person's approach, his intent and what he expects to gain from the experience, and how he integrates that experience into his life. The approach has a lot to do with it. There is a huge difference between a shaman in the Amazon who spends decades studying the plants, studying the nuances of the trance state, etc., and a person who orders a psychoactive substance on the internet and ingests it hoping it will give him/her an instant life-altering experience. The shaman is trained not only in how to handle that experience while it's happening but also in how to apply what is learned from the experience in his/her life after the session is over. The everyday user has no training of that type.

The intent and what you expect to gain from the experience also play an important role. For example, if a technique can approximate the effects of a high dose of DMT -- entity contact, to use your example -- what does the person hope to gain from that experience? How does the person intend to make use of that experience in his/her life once the session is over?

In your earlier comment, you described an intense experience triggered by LSD. How did it affect you in the short-term? How about in the long-term? In what ways does it affect you now, long after it's over? Did it change you profoundly, and in what ways? What do you do differently now as a direct result of that experience? How have you integrated that experience into your thoughts/beliefs/behavior in your daily life?

Sorry for all the questions. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to interrogate you, because that's not my intent at all. :-) There are two reasons I ask: first, to demonstrate that there are differences between a person who explores psychoactive substances for true personal growth and a person who tries them just for a temporary wild experience, and second, to get a better idea of your approach so I can figure out which techniques might help you get where you want to be.

~ Kris

]]> By: Bill Thompson http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/comment-page-1/#comment-299 Bill Thompson Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:53:27 +0000 http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/#comment-299 "just take a pill" approach., yes but is there not the preperations, the intermidable experience and the years of grappling with and trying to assimilate the experience?, just taking the pill is really a small component of an immensily complex process, would you tell an Amazonian shaman he has a 'just eat a mushroom approach'?, or 'just chug some ayahausca' appraoch?, well i guess i make reference to Mckenna here, who likened meditation and yoga as something done under the influence of psychedelics, but as the availability of psychedelic plants diminished you have the yoga without the real engine driving it. Can meditation approximate entity contact such as is typical of high dose DMT experience for instance? I apologize for the antagonistic tone i assure you it is not intentional. "just take a pill" approach., yes but is there not the preperations, the intermidable experience and the years of grappling with and trying to assimilate the experience?, just taking the pill is really a small component of an immensily complex process, would you tell an Amazonian shaman he has a 'just eat a mushroom approach'?, or 'just chug some ayahausca' appraoch?, well i guess i make reference to Mckenna here, who likened meditation and yoga as something done under the influence of psychedelics, but as the availability of psychedelic plants diminished you have the yoga without the real engine driving it. Can meditation approximate entity contact such as is typical of high dose DMT experience for instance?
I apologize for the antagonistic tone i assure you it is not intentional.

]]> By: Dave http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/comment-page-1/#comment-298 Dave Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:04:00 +0000 http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/#comment-298 Fanstastic Article. I've never found a piece of writing that details my thoughts about the subject so straightforwardly. Thanks. RE: bill thompson - I get the impression that your mildly antagonizing post is the result of a lot of frustration. Kris has a point about the fix-it-now mentality of our culture. Getting that handled is the first step that might help you. Personally I recommend the Sedona Method, and Zazen. Though I dont consider myself a "buddhist," I find their methods are as straightforward as it gets. The thing is, people LOVE the "just take a pill" approach. And it can be quite helpful at first, with the proper preparation for the trip. But if you take a few years and learn to do it with ONLY your mind, you'll have a level of self-knowledge and understanding about the world that will make the experience infinitely more satisfying. Cheers, Dave Fanstastic Article. I've never found a piece of writing that details my thoughts about the subject so straightforwardly. Thanks.

RE: bill thompson - I get the impression that your mildly antagonizing post is the result of a lot of frustration. Kris has a point about the fix-it-now mentality of our culture. Getting that handled is the first step that might help you. Personally I recommend the Sedona Method, and Zazen. Though I dont consider myself a "buddhist," I find their methods are as straightforward as it gets.

The thing is, people LOVE the "just take a pill" approach. And it can be quite helpful at first, with the proper preparation for the trip. But if you take a few years and learn to do it with ONLY your mind, you'll have a level of self-knowledge and understanding about the world that will make the experience infinitely more satisfying.

Cheers,

Dave

]]> By: Bill Thompson http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/comment-page-1/#comment-297 Bill Thompson Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:41:11 +0000 http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/#comment-297 Thanks for the response, well after experiences with LSD, Mescaline and Psylocybin, i keep looking back to one very extreme LSD experience where i had the experience of both the meta-cosmic void (a term i borrowed from Grof), and something i could only describe as actually becoming the godhead, now i am no new-age type that uses these terms will nilly, infact, before this i was a total nihlist and completely pessimistic, but the high-dose acid dissolved my ego, my sense of self, deconstructed reality before my eyes, melted time and sent me spinning into a point of total psychic zero, then, an ecstatic illumination where i became god, needless to say i was shocked and it took a great deal of time to recover from this, it was actually rather traumatic, and although i am open to it, i still feel sceptical about natural techniques really approximating this, even the plant based hallucinogens in strong doses couldn't do it for me, only the synthetic-lysergic could..... Thanks for the response, well after experiences with LSD, Mescaline and Psylocybin, i keep looking back to one very extreme LSD experience where i had the experience of both the meta-cosmic void (a term i borrowed from Grof), and something i could only describe as actually becoming the godhead, now i am no new-age type that uses these terms will nilly, infact, before this i was a total nihlist and completely pessimistic, but the high-dose acid dissolved my ego, my sense of self, deconstructed reality before my eyes, melted time and sent me spinning into a point of total psychic zero, then, an ecstatic illumination where i became god, needless to say i was shocked and it took a great deal of time to recover from this, it was actually rather traumatic, and although i am open to it, i still feel sceptical about natural techniques really approximating this, even the plant based hallucinogens in strong doses couldn't do it for me, only the synthetic-lysergic could.....

]]> By: reality shifter http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/comment-page-1/#comment-296 reality shifter Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:57:26 +0000 http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/#comment-296 Hi Bill, Thanks for the comment, and for raising a good point. The only drawback of using techniques instead of drugs is that you have to make the initial effort to learn the techniques, which is something a lot of people aren't willing to do. Even if a technique is easy to learn and only requires a little bit of practice, some people still consider that too much effort. It's representative of the "quick fix" mentality of our society. People would rather rely on a drug to trigger the experience because it's quick and requires no effort beyond ingesting or smoking the substance. The problem with relying on a drug is that you require something external to trigger the experience for you, which eventually makes the drug a crutch. Techniques require nothing but your own mind, something you always have with you and can use at any time. :-) Of course, if a person's only goal is to see a few trippy visual effects rather than actually exploring states of consciousness, it's not really worth learning the techniques because he/she won't get much value out of them anyway. If you give me an idea of what type of experience you're aiming for (i.e., lucid dreaming, deep meditation, etc.), I can recommend some techniques targeted specifically toward that goal. Feel free to reply here or via email. ~ Kris Hi Bill,
Thanks for the comment, and for raising a good point. The only drawback of using techniques instead of drugs is that you have to make the initial effort to learn the techniques, which is something a lot of people aren't willing to do. Even if a technique is easy to learn and only requires a little bit of practice, some people still consider that too much effort. It's representative of the "quick fix" mentality of our society. People would rather rely on a drug to trigger the experience because it's quick and requires no effort beyond ingesting or smoking the substance.

The problem with relying on a drug is that you require something external to trigger the experience for you, which eventually makes the drug a crutch. Techniques require nothing but your own mind, something you always have with you and can use at any time. :-) Of course, if a person's only goal is to see a few trippy visual effects rather than actually exploring states of consciousness, it's not really worth learning the techniques because he/she won't get much value out of them anyway.

If you give me an idea of what type of experience you're aiming for (i.e., lucid dreaming, deep meditation, etc.), I can recommend some techniques targeted specifically toward that goal. Feel free to reply here or via email.

~ Kris

]]> By: Bill Thompson http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/comment-page-1/#comment-295 Bill Thompson Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:38:20 +0000 http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/#comment-295 I hear a great deal about these alternative techniques but many people fail to elaborate on them, often these techniques are very difficult to master, such as meditation, leaving one open to the hazerdous yet reliable option of drugs, it seems that the alternative techniques are no match for the awesome potency of psychedelics, so tell me, what are the simple but truly effective techniques i can use to truly approximate the psychedelic experience without the drugs?? I hear a great deal about these alternative techniques but many people fail to elaborate on them, often these techniques are very difficult to master, such as meditation, leaving one open to the hazerdous yet reliable option of drugs, it seems that the alternative techniques are no match for the awesome potency of psychedelics, so tell me, what are the simple but truly effective techniques i can use to truly approximate the psychedelic experience without the drugs??

]]> By: reality shifter http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/comment-page-1/#comment-294 reality shifter Wed, 10 Oct 2007 01:37:35 +0000 http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/#comment-294 Hi JP, I've had psychedelic experiences in the past -- even some I'd consider successful in the sense of providing the temporary enlightenment or peak experiences you described -- but I could have achieved (and regularly do achieve) those same experiences through other methods. I would rather experience continual, steady growth than temporary excursions into altered states. But, I don't deny the use of psychoactive substances can lead to moments of enlightenment, and I don't discourage people from taking that path if they choose to do so. It's just not the path I choose for myself. I'm glad you posted a comment. It's always nice to hear from someone with a different point of view. Have you had the kind of life-changing experience you described? If you would be willing to share your story, I would like to hear more about your experiences since it sounds like you have had interesting results. ~ Kris Hi JP,
I've had psychedelic experiences in the past -- even some I'd consider successful in the sense of providing the temporary enlightenment or peak experiences you described -- but I could have achieved (and regularly do achieve) those same experiences through other methods. I would rather experience continual, steady growth than temporary excursions into altered states. But, I don't deny the use of psychoactive substances can lead to moments of enlightenment, and I don't discourage people from taking that path if they choose to do so. It's just not the path I choose for myself.

I'm glad you posted a comment. It's always nice to hear from someone with a different point of view. Have you had the kind of life-changing experience you described? If you would be willing to share your story, I would like to hear more about your experiences since it sounds like you have had interesting results.

~ Kris

]]> By: JP http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/comment-page-1/#comment-293 JP Tue, 09 Oct 2007 23:53:38 +0000 http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/why-i-dont-use-psychoactive-drugs-to-achieve-altered-states/#comment-293 I get the impression you have never had a successful psychedelic experience. One thing you don't mention is that while you may not be in control during the experience, you are in complete control before the experience. That means you can shape the set and setting of the experience thru planning and intention. You can combine non-psychedelic practices with psychedelics in order to enhance your practice, and even break thru to new levels. I like to think of a good psychedelic experience as "temporary enlightenment". You get a taste of a peak experience that you can use as inspiration for the rest of your life. Using psychedelics with a good set and setting and the right kinds of intentions can produce a powerful and possibly life-changing experience. I get the impression you have never had a successful psychedelic experience. One thing you don't mention is that while you may not be in control during the experience, you are in complete control before the experience. That means you can shape the set and setting of the experience thru planning and intention. You can combine non-psychedelic practices with psychedelics in order to enhance your practice, and even break thru to new levels. I like to think of a good psychedelic experience as "temporary enlightenment". You get a taste of a peak experience that you can use as inspiration for the rest of your life. Using psychedelics with a good set and setting and the right kinds of intentions can produce a powerful and possibly life-changing experience.

]]>